I don't really believe in blocking people or deleting comments because I'm pro freedom of speech and all that, and I realize the comments section has gotten pretty intense because of this. I'm also about to have a baby and don't have the energy to moderate this space or respond to comments right now. I encourage people to try to get their points across without being aggressive or resorting to insults or threats.
Besides the "Hamasniks are murderous because they are oppressed" false narrative, there is also the false narrative that "Israeli soldiers and settlers are murderous because they are colonialists". No. They are murderous because they want to live and prosper, and some of them even want the non-murderous Palestinians to live and prosper. Colonialism is a total misunderstanding of what has happened there, based on accurate models of what happened in Africa and the New world with European colonialists.
Colonialists. But this is not what happened. They did not remove the locals until the locals started murdering them. And they DID have documented ancestors dating back 2000 or so years, but that part doesn't matter, I think it's a red herring, though many right wing Jews are all about it. The locals could have been nice and welcoming, as most were in the americas, but instead at least some of the locals were murderous. Not only were these socialists willing to share everything with the locals (unlike colonialists who only want to extract resources from the locals), but they were REFUGEES. And also, many Mizrahi refugees (mostly not socialists, but also not colonialists) were kicked out by colonialist arabs from their countries, who took all their resources simply for being Jews.
The only colonialist thing that happened is to a small minority of Palestinian farmers who were kicked off their land by PALESTINIAN landlords, when the jewish agency (NOT socialists, but also not colonialists, the goal was to settle jewish refugees, not to extract resources from the natives) bought that land. If the socialists refugees had known this would happen, they would have opposed it. The rest of the land they bought was uninhabited swampland.
And less of an "ethnostate" than most other countries, in the sense of being very inclusive of other religions and ethnicities. Certainly less of an ethnostate than all the arab states at the time.
I didn't know that story about the Yemeni Jews. That's horrifying -- and completely believable, honestly. I'm familiar with some of the history of childrearing practices in the early Kibbutzes and there's clearly an incredible amount of trauma that came as a result of that. A Jewish friend told me that German Jews were kind of treated as "more civilized" and as having expertise that other groups were expected to respect etc and it all sounded pretty f-ed up.
"growing fears among the local Arab population about losing their land and political control" yes, but that was due to their fascist, colonialist, antisemitic and genocidal leaders, who collaborated with the Nazis, not anything the socialist refugees had done.
"violent clashes began". NO. I won't let you get away with using the passive voice. Violent clashes were started by murderous Palestinians, every single time from the early 1920s until the Jews kicked them out in 1948.
"The local population's resistance was rooted in genuine concerns about losing their homes, land, and political power, not simply a refusal to be "welcoming.""
NO. There was absolutely no reason to fear that from the Jews. The arabs had no problem with being ruled by a Turkish Colonial empire where they had very little political power, but now they are afraid of socialists who want to give them political power?
"Mizrahi Jews from places like Yemen, Iraq, and Egypt were often fleeing persecution in their home countries, but many found themselves treated as second-class citizens upon arriving in Israel." ... "Yemenite Children Affair..."
I was not aware of your story about Mizrahi children, sounds suspect and made-up and I will check on it and get back to you. But even if there were some episodes of discrimination against them by Ashkenazis, so what? Discrimination occurs almost in every culture, and the question is do things improve or not?. It is not equivalent to colonialism. Most Mizrahi Jews today don't feel like they are being discriminated in by Ashkenazis, and would certainly not want to move back to arab apartheid states, because things improved in Israel (but not so much in arab states).
"They were often settled in underdeveloped areas, like "development towns" or temporary transit camps, where they lived in poor conditions and were given limited opportunities for advancement. " This shows ignorance of the conditions of the first many years in Israel. Almost EVERYONE was poor and lived in poor conditions, and the main advancement was working hard at mostly farming and basic industry.
"While Mizrahi Jews faced terrible treatment both in their countries of origin and in Israel, it’s important to remember that their suffering does not negate or justify the displacement of Palestinians. Both communities have experienced trauma, and recognizing one group’s pain should not come at the expense of ignoring the other’s."
Sure, but one group was mostly murderous and one was not. I feel bad for both. If the Palestinians hadn't been murderous, they would not have been displaced. If the Mizrahis had been murderous, they would probably have also been displaced.
"there are also policies that prioritize the Jewish identity of the state, such as the Law of Return, which allows Jews from anywhere in the world to gain automatic citizenship. This is a privilege not extended to Palestinians displaced in 1948, who are still denied the right of return."
Yes, because they need to show non-murderous intent first. It's not easy to trust them given what they have said and done so far (whereas there is no reason to think Jews who want to "return" to Israel have murderous intent). There are those Palestinians who genuinely want to live in peace, but it's hard to know if they are telling the truth. After many attempts at peace, and especially after October 7th, the little trust that leftist Israelis had towards Palestinians is mostly gone. I think the ones who genuinely want peace should be vetted and monitored and allowed to return, but I am in a minority and I don't live there, and I don't blame the majority for not wanting to risk their lives.
yup yup, good "pernts" yer makin'--two quick comments:
1. most nations screwed up quite a bit at the start--Israel's restart (from even the early 20thc) as a nation is no exception and shouldn't git harder scrutiny because of it--they're still findin' out "who they are" as a new-ish (jooish) nation so yes--the socialist whatever kibbutz system was not good fer privacy or "famblies" and they dumped it in the late 60's (thankfully!) and sadly, yes, they started out with a hierarchy--Ashkenazi's took pride of place, German chews on top. To the surprise of NOBODY in the USA that was the same HERE. Even in my fambly (our Germans were snobby an' felt superior to our Litvaks who dismissed the Poles--all joos among joos they did this). Happened on the Lower East Side, so--yes, a shonda--happened in Israel where imho the biggest crime was to (at first) outlaw Yiddish! Yes to ban it an' vilify it as shetyl talk unworthy. Over time...much!... they figgered out they screwed up big time, they fixed it. Now you can read Yiddish poetry again. And here in AmeriKa we had slaves an' women didn't have the vote (I won't even start ta mention the Indians). Nu? This isn't allowed with joos? Every other nation had some ugly at the start... Only Israel is told they cannot exist fer it?
2. Re the above, apart from the Ashkenazi hierarchy mess, yes, some Mizrahis / Yemenite joos were not treated so nicely either--not horribly, nobuddy wanted to kill 'em but yes, true. A dear Yemenite jooish friend of ours just passed away--her late husband was a German joo, she native Israeli, him not. She olive complected he a blue-eyed blond. For all the above she told us about uneven treatment--not horrible discrimination but yes not impartial. That changed too over time. By the mid60's they were here in the US, he went back to fight in the IDF more 'n once. My "pernt" is that even in the same fambly there was unequal treatment in the post-war years... that too changed.
It all changed over time. Every nation, young 'er old, should be rightly called on its faults but certainly not razed for 'em!
Right, but the point is there was no colonialism until very recently (with the settlers). Socialists can't be colonialists, and extreme modern leftists in general can't be racists or antisemitic. Antisemitism is coming from the far right. Less true with moderates from both right and left. Moderate leftists can treat the outgroup worse than the ingroup.
Also, ask your AI if it is possible even in theory for socialists to be colonialist? I guess neither you nor the AI are capable of logical cognitive dissonance. At least the AI is not motivated by ill intent.
Hi Meghan: Thank you for opening up a conversation that badly needs to be had. You are offering a point of view that isn’t easily found online or in legacy media. I’m finding the comments, as well as your column, very informative and helpful. Congratulations on making room for a discussion that doesn’t end in recreational nastiness. I’m sick of extremism. It’s a dead end. When we don’t listen to others, and demonize them instead problems stay unchanged.
Actual literal Jew here (president of my AZA chapter in high school!) who thinks israel is an abomination, has no right to exist, and supports the intifada.
it's comforting to believe that anti-zionism is anti-semitism, because since you can (and should) dismiss antisemetic beliefs, you could in theory dismiss anti-zionism just as well.
i've talked to hundreds of anti-zionists in my life, people who like me believe that Israel has no right to exist. A huge amount (at least 20%) were fellow jews. The rest never expressed any anti-semitism (although maybe they knew I was jewish?) They certainly didn't seem like they had a problem with me.
My people use anti-semitism as a false flag to distract from criticism of Israel. Especially among the boomers, there is a belief that anything that protects/furthers the cause of Israel is good even if it dishonest. I would encourage you to consider the possibility that you have been manipulated.
I'm aware that there are Jewish people out there who do not support Zionism or Israel. (And I never meant to imply otherwise, my point here is that there are also many Palestinians, Lebanese, Muslims etc who are critical of Islamic extremism, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the activists here, and their voices deserve to be heard just as both Zionist and anti-Zionist (and everything in between) Jews ought to be). But it is my understanding that the vast majority of Jewish people support Israel's right to exist, even if they have criticisms of the government etc. My husband is Jewish, I am not.
I see. It appears missed the point of your article. I would argue that the identitarian approach to ideology (IE listen to a particular group of people) is misguided, regardless of which side uses it.
As you point out, in almost any ethnically tinged conflict there are going to be people from both groups on both sides. I don't think people should only listen to pro-palestine Palestinians but again that misses the point: Israel is wrong because it is wrong, never because of who says it is wrong. Similarly -- I don't think we need to "listen to women" to be against rape/sexual assault. Nor do we need to listen to African Americans to be against police brutality (that's actually a very similar situation where there are tons of African Americans who want more policing in their communities). I think the truth of certain causes ought to be self-evident to outsiders.
In fairness to you, I constantly see my fellow anti-zionists making terrible arguments so I imagine you probably have encountered a bunch of people telling you to listen to Palestinians. What I will say, as someone who grew up surrounded by Zionism is that until very recently, Zionism had an almost hegemonic role in the discourse so I _would_ encourage Zionists to seek out non-zionist sources, but I don't think the ethnicity of those sources is meaningful.
It’s also comforting to believe that anti-Zionism is never anti-Semitism and that it is in effect a get out of jail free card, complete absolution. Also, I don’t give a shit if you’re a Jew, you’re Jew hating scum. blocked.
Terrorism is awful, and Hamas aren't the good guys. Israel isn't perfect either, but no government is. The more I heal myself the less radical I've become. I used to be such an arrogant, petulant child that thought she knew best. I'm ashamed of that past self, but I'm also compassionate. This world needs healing. Extremists on both sides (because yes, there are awful people on both sides) need healing...and you can't force them to heal. You can't force them to act or think in any way, same with us. Growth and healing comes from within. So we watch, we reach out to those who awoke from "woke" and we hope more will come.
Thank you for writing this, Cassandra! You are in the vanguard of people who are waking up to the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance of a "progressive" #FreePalestine movement. I believe that many of us believed that it was progressive to support Palestine because it was coming from the Left. What many of us (stupidly) failed to see was that the far-Right and enemies of Western civilization also supported this movement. All that the Hamas Digital Force had to do was tie in Zionism with Capitalism and it all went downhill from there! Queers for Palestine and other "Face-Eating Leopard Club" cadres were formed.
While I used to consider myself a leftist, I was never actually "pro-Palestine"! I just didn't know a lot about the Middle East and stayed out of that particular conversation. But then October 7th happened and my husband is Jewish and suddenly a lot of people who I'd never seen or heard say anything about this were going off on social media ... so I started reading and listening to podcasts and tried to engage with both sides with an open mind. But it was so obvious that a lot of what the "pro-Palestine" activists were saying online wasn't true ... and their behaviour was so toxic. I honestly wanted to believe the best in them, but the more I paid attention to what they were saying and what they believed, how they treated anyone who disagreed with them, the harder it became. I only recently started following / listening to / reading stuff by Muslim and ex-Muslim peace activists who oppose Islamic extremism, and I'm learning a lot. A lot of stuff that scares the crap out of me, to be honest :-/ thanks for reading ...
Meghan, I agree with much of what you said, but I think the antisemitism trope is inaccurate. Many people should be able to criticize Israel, especially the current government (including many Israelis!), and that doesn't make them antisemitic. The problem is not criticism of Israel, but a false understanding of what is going on there. It's true that the IDF sometimes messes up, and that soldiers sometimes kill civilians unnecessarily (and this surely happenned for Hamasniks on October 7th as well, not all their murdering of pro-Palestinian Israeli civilians was intentional). It's also true that settlers act in ways that are born of hatred and produce more hatred on the Palestinian side with terrible acts towards Palestinian farmers. Oppression of Palestinians by Israelis DOES HAPPEN, not just in the west bank, and sometimes within Israel, but even in Gaza implicitly, because of the blockade, and the oppression has increased from 1948.
What is NOT true is the fundamental narrative of many western leftists that Hamasniks are murderous BECAUSE Palestinians are being oppressed. Here is why:
1. When refugee socialist and anarchist (as in "let's share the earth and love everyone in justice and peace") Jews from Europe first came to Palestine, most came with an open heart and mind, wanting peace with the locals (caveat: there was a small minority who were right wing, but they mostly settled in Tel Aviv and had little contact with the local villagers or even local muslim city dwellers until Deir Yassin). They were not oppressing the locals, the locals were not living in an open air prison, and still some of the locals started murdering them (way before Deir Yassin)
2. When Israel made concessions and oppressed the Palestinians LESS, the Jihadists among them were more emboldened and started murdering or trying to murder MORE (suicide bombings, stabbings, ramming Israelis with cars, and rockets). There is no signal, even delayed, that shows the efficacy of being more peaceful towards Palestinians. On the contrary, more peace and love from Israel, leads to more violence from extremist Palestinians.
3.Peace loving Israelis who were helping Palestinians both with healthcare and financially, and were working towards ousting Netanyahu were murdered indiscriminately on October 7, just because they were available to be murdered. So were asian interns at kibbutzes. It wasn't about murdering "the evil oppressor zionists". It was just about murdering people who were soft targets (but still considered "evil oppressors" by western liberals?).
4. The murderousness persists in some Islamic countries (not just Israel/Palestine, as you have pointed out) between Jihadists, whether they are oppressing each other or not, and certainly happened towards Jews before 48 in arab countries, who were actually the oppressed minorities there. The fact that western liberals are not in arms about these other countries is due to the fact that Hamas is much better at propaganda than anyone in these other countries, and also due to the fact that there is no easy "persecutor" with which to play the victim/persecutor/rescuer game (liberals love this game, always being the "rescuers").
The root problem is Jihadist Islam. Oppression of people is one factor that leads to people becoming more open to Jihadism (or other murderous ideologies), but once they adopt the ideology, oppression has nothing to do with their murderousness anymore. Western liberals do not have a model for this kind of murderous ideology. The only models they have are of oppressed people becoming murderous as an act of resistance, but in that case their murderousness is conditional on the oppression stopping. Not so in the case of Jihadists.
My daughter wants my attention so I had to skim this (I'll read comments more carefully when I have a chance) but quickly, I didn't mean to imply that any criticism of Israel, the IDF etc is antisemitic -- I actually think I wrote the opposite. I take issue with lies, blood libels, slander, hypocrisy, etc.
I also acknowledge that there definitely is extremism within Israel -- the link goes to the Wikipedia page on Kahanism, which is objectively a Zionist extremist terrorist movement, and absolutely deserves condemnation. And yes, there is definitely a lot to criticize about what some Israelis are doing in the West Bank.
Here's the quote:
"I’m not asking you to become pro-Israel or pro-Zionist, to like Bibi, or to pretend that there is no extremism among the Jewish people (there is). I think it’s fine to criticize Israel, the Jewish people, and individual Jews—although, radically, I think these criticisms should be accurate, a standard that it seems the vast majority of “pro-Palestine” activists fail to achieve."
Yes, I read what you said carefully (I even had caught a typo, but forgot what it was by the time I was done), I didn't miss that. I think we don't need to get bogged down in blood libels or other stupidities, we should address the smart liberals or socialists or anarchists, who are making a fundamental mistake in their understanding of the situation there, not because they are antisemitic.
I hope you can go back to what I wrote and comment on it. And that all this doesn't induce premature labor due to stress ;-)
So there were no Israeli massacres of Palestinian villages in the Nakba? Qibiya is the first one that pops into mind (mostly because the rest of the villages have names that start with S + (insert Arabic shit here)), alongside the intentional antagonism of its neighbors (lead up to wars with Syria and Egypt where Israel successfully portrayed the Arabs as the evil aggressors), all the way up to Bibi Netanyahu promising that wars with Iran and Iraq would bring peace to the region (what a lie and how many people died) - the Zionist Jewish Kool-Aid really is something huh. Your shit doesn't stink.
There were ZERO massacres of Palestinians by Jews before 1948. But many massacres of LIBERAL, ANARCHIST, SOCIALIST, LEFTIST, PEACE LOVING Jews by Palestinians. Qibiya was in 1953. There was also ZERO expulsions of Palestinians from land and homes by Jews before 1948. After 1948, the Jews decided to stand up to the murderousness and so the Nakba happened. But even then, the Jews continue to help and try to collaborate with peaceful Palestinians in many ways, some of which Meghan mentioned. But let's keep talking, brother.
the existence of groups like Irgun and its disproportionate influence on Israeli politics in the form of Likud party / other far-right / right groups in Israel ... I want to know what Kool-Aid you're drinking. This is some North Korean rewriting of history that no one outside of your bubble believes (because it never happened).
Irgun was a very small fringe group that I already alluded to in my comment. They fucked up at Deir Yassin and were condemned by everyone else in the Palmah. No, the history is accurate. You have not addressed the points I made and thus have shown yourself to be in bad faith, so no further interaction for me with you until you address the points I made.
I can't help myself but to engage with this false prophet, since we are both interested in history (but only one of us in truth). My interest in truth is motivated by childhood trauma, to be sure, it's sometimes (like here) counterproductive and OCD.
By the time Likkud was a party, Irgun was long gone. So your statement is false in that sense. No influence of Irgun on Likkud. There were some former Irgun members who made it to high positions in the Likkud though, so there is some truth to your statement. But by that time, they had renounced terrorism, much like Mandela did in South Africa, since their terrorism was aimed at getting the British colonialists out of Israel/Palestine. Yes, even with the King David Hotel, which was a military target.
Find me even ONE (documented in writing) instance of unprovoked Jewish violence against arabs before 1948, or ONE instance of Palestinians being kicked out of their homes or lands by Jews, before 1948.
Israel's actions show that it never intended to compensate or resettle Palestinians; state expansion was always the objective. Naturally, once Arab nations recognized this, they responded with aggression. Categorizing Arabs as extremists indicates a biased viewpoint and exemplifies how Israeli and Jewish narratives have effectively demonized the other side.
I read the last 2 articles, but not Morris, because I am familiar with Morris' position, which is also mine: after 5 (or more?) arab countries attacked Israel in 1948, and even just before when internal arabs were attacking Jews within Israel, many internal arabs who were seen as a threat were displaced. Some who seemed peaceful were allowed to stay. The UN already showed its cluelessness back in 1949, not understanding that you can't let people who want to murder you back into your country (and of course it wasn't a perfect filter, there were some false negatives, meaning some arabs who were peaceful were also unfortunately displaced). Nobody except Israel would be expected to do such a thing. Antisemitism? Perhaps, though I'd rather think cluelessness.
Lies, and misunderstandings. Who categroized "arabs" as extremists? Not me. They HAVE conservative extremists, but more so than Israelis, as surveys have shown.
I read your entire essay and it's missing the overall point that the world is condemning the genocidal way in which Israel is waging war against Palestine. You are lumping together people who are "pro Hamas" (which yes, is very problematic) and the larger group who simply don't think Israel should be breaking Geneva conventions and international law and waging genocide against another population. Being anti-apartheid and anti-genocide is not being anti-semitic. it's also not being pro-hamas.
Are you anti-apartheid? Are you anti-genocide? Do you believe a country should be able to restrict the rights of some citizens based on their ethnicity?
Emma, I'm happy to read your link (will do so now), but given that my essay was published less than half an hour ago and how much material I included in it, there's no way you engaged with even a fraction of it. I think Israel should be doing everything in their power to minimize civilian deaths, and that the civilian death count has been tragically high.
"Are you anti-genocide?" Yes, of bloody course. Nothing I wrote here indicates I am "pro-genocide" but you'll note that I point out that "pro-Palestine" activists seem to be incapable of engaging with contradicting view points *without* resorting to stuff like "Do you support genocide?" Based on the evidence I've looked at from both sides, I do not think the vast majority of people in Israel wish to commit a genocide, but that rescuing the hostages and taking out Hamas has been *extremely* difficult due to how Hamas does nothing to protect civilians (they started the war, why didn't they build bomb shelters for civilians since they knew it was coming?) and even uses them as human shields. That belief is not the same thing as "supporting genocide". I do not want any innocent civilians to die, I just blame Hamas *more* for the deaths of innocents than I do the IDF.
No, I don't think a country should restrict rights of citizens based on ethnicity. However, Israel left Gaza nearly 20 years ago as an occupying force, and hasn't governed Gaza since. Within Israel, can you give me an example of rights being denied based on ethnicity?
They just regurgitate and repeat "genocide" and "apartheid" because someone told them to. They have no idea what either term actually means, nor that both are utterly false accusations applied to Israel, instead of countries where either or both are actually happening. The point of your essay is correct: there's no point in engaging with these people. They're brainwashed, and until they decide to pull themselves out of it, hopeless.
Yes :-/ There's extreme black and white thinking going on, "splitting" where people (etc) are "all good" or "all bad". The issue is, because they think this way, they can't accept that they might have gotten anything wrong, because then their self-image risks flipping from "all good" to "all bad." Narcissism is a hard shell to break.
The fact that this person thinks Ta-Nehisi Coates is some sort of authority on Israel (which he calls "Palestine") simply because he spent a week and a half there, and has a book to peddle, says a lot. Not a serious person; but people who believe Israel has no right to exist rarely, if ever, are. They're just obsessives who decompensate by the day.
Yes, it's somewhat odd that she invokes Coates as some sort of authority on this but won't bother to watch the interview with Mansour Al-Hadj I included.
Perhaps thinking about this event on the pro/anti slaughter axis might give you more clarity.
You might be able to hear the voices that think that the slaughter on Oct 7th in Israel and the subsequent year-long slaughter in Gaza were both detestable.
If you think Oct 7th was an atrocity, and you value human life equally, then you must also see the response as an atrocity too.
I don't have issues with people who condemn both October 7 and the response to it, but condemning the response without condemning October 7 is f-cked up. I tend to blame Hamas *more* for civilian deaths in Gaza than the IDF, but either way, I think far too many civilians have died.
I was upset that people are planning to celebrate what happened on October 7, and stuff like the denial of sexual violence etc. As well as lies, slander, and bullying from the activists, and ignoring the oppression, violence (etc) by Islamic extremists across the Middle East. But ultimately the point of my writing this was that I want people to listen to Middle Eastern voices who challenge the activists' narratives and actions.
What would paying attention to the "oppression, violence (etc) by Islamic extremists across the Middle East" look like? What would listening to "Middle Eastern voices who challenge the activists' narratives and actions" look like?
Would it stop their resistance to Israel's actions, or weaken it?
I don't think so. War crimes on either side don't justify further war crimes.
I can read all the stories you posted and be disgusted by them and also be disgusted by the bombing of Lebanon. As well, I can look at the scale of the suffering inflicted and have that scale impact the amount of disgust I feel. I can do that because I value Israeli, Lebanese and Palestinian lives equally.
This discussion about trauma and Jewishness went a long way to helping me understand the situation as a non Jew. I hope it helps you too.
I'm a fan of a lot of Gabor Mate's work (and have read some of Klein's books as well), but unfortunately I think his judgement has been clouded lately. For example:
That's a big ask to watch an hour and 50 minutes video. I skipped around a bit. Can you try to summarize their points? I am familiar with Daniel's dad who thinks about trauma like a carpenter with only a hammer thinks of nails. Everything is trauma to Gabor. And I think it's probably true that American/Canadian Jews have been more traumatized than most Israelis until October 7th, because Israelis are resilient and actually anti-fragile. The way to do that is to be able to express feelings and directly deal with what is trying to traumatize you. Trauma comes when people are trapped and helpless. Israelis have actually looked badly at holocaust survivors who are not able to act, all they want to do is complain, though there is also trauma-informed understanding.
So for most Israelis younger than 60, they don't want to finish off Hamas and Hezbalah because they are traumatized by October 7th (and certainly not the holocaust, that's just american and Canadian Jews). It's a pragmatic matter. It's a way to peace, not the whole way, but a beginning that has to be followed by all kinds of other non-violent measures. It's become clear that without finishing off current Jihadists, peace will never come (see my post earlier on why the standard liberal narrative about how Jihadists are murderous because they are oppressed, and Israelis are murderous because they are colonialists is completely and utterly false).
I think those 3 folks from the video should go to Gaza and talk to Hamas, and then (if they survive) go to Israel and talk to almost anyone (but not the settlers) so they can see the situation for themselves, instead of from afar. Please watch this much shorter video for some info on Daniel's dad Gabor Mate and his weasel-like behavior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGOSrl3UPUg
Given that you posted this within minutes of it going live, there is exactly a zero percent chance you read it, or looked at or read any sources. Which, you'll find it you read it, is pretty much exactly my point about the "pro-Palestine" crowd -- you don't engage with material that contradicts your beliefs.
Let's assume Israel is committing Geneva violations. Hamas (and Hezbollah etc) *obviously* is too. So why are you only condemning one side?
It was worth reading past your near-immediate invocation of antisemitism to see you admit your tendency to play flying monkey. So either you know exactly what you’re doing or “the shadow knows,” but either way: please stop. We’ve all read so many pieces like this, and they only hurt your cause.
It’s not antisemitic to condemn Israel’s conduct. To suggest otherwise is incredibly insulting to your intended audience (as are the scare quotes around pro-Palestine). We’re not stupid, nor are we blind. And neither are you. It’s not as if you racked your brain and could only come up with antisemitism as a possible explanation.
It’s simply bad hasbara, a zero-effort straw Nazi smeared with bullshit. At some level, you must already know this.
This was written pretty quickly, I've been emotional (which I admitted), and I'm about to have a baby. My point was that I wanted people to engage with Middle Eastern voices who contradict or challenge the activist narrative. If you're looking for good explanations, the links are there for you to read / watch.
Without Google and A.I., if you asked this person what specific "Geneva violations" Israel has allegedly committed (and Hamas/Hesbollah/Houthis/Iran, etc. supposedly hasn't), you'd get slackjawed silence.
“It’s not antisemitic to condemn Israel’s conduct.”
Sometimes it certainly is. If you focus maniacally in a spittle-flecked rage on Israel and say nothing about the 5 million refugees in Sudan – that definitely can be anti-Semitism. And my guess is you don’t care about any other world conflicts. That’s a Jew hating twat like you being disingenuous and trying to use “Oh I’m just against Israel” as a get out of jail free card. Rejected.
Also, who TF is this Xy douchebag? I’m guessing that he’s under 35, which means in terms of ability to absorb facts and do independent research, he might as well be 15. A generation that learns everything via TikTok.
I love the concern trolling of “only hurts your cause.” As if he gave two shits about our cause, or the 7 million Jews living in Israel. Or for that matter the 90,000 of them that were displaced from their homes by theocratic fascists. He can fuck straight off to hell along with the rest of our enemies
I'm considerably older than 35, thanks, but I admit I don't know what Sudan has to do with antisemitism. Are you comparing the situations because both involve ethnic cleansing if not outright genocide?
> I looked at the event. It’s a celebration. A goddamn celebration of the hundreds of murders, rapes, and kidnappings of mostly-civilians, including many women, children, and seniors, that happened on October 7th. Organized by a group with “intifada” in its name. What the hell is wrong with you?Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?
Perhaps they don't believe there were "hundreds of murders and rapes", just bad propaganda about what happened. And probably think 70 years of displacement and murders, including a full blown genocide upon a landlocked population that has 50x the victims is worse.
If we're going to speculate about Jungian shadows, I think there is another one that comes to mind, besides the "Great Empty" of modernity though. Ironically, unlike western wokesters, both Jihadists and pre-Nakba Palestinians do not have this shadow. Jihadists' lives are full of meaning, though much of it is based on murderousness. And most pre-Nakba Palestinians also had lives full of meaning, dignity, community and good work in villages and small cities.
The liberal (and also woke) shadow I want to bring to your attention, is the (subconscious) realization that some people's murderousness is not amenable to liberal measures such as education, free speech, wealth, justice, trade, love, self-sacrifice by their perceived enemies, and self-determination. The shadow that must be buried at all costs into the pit of one's subconscious is: the only way Jihadists can be prevented from murdering is with death or imprisonment (and maybe cult-deprogramming techniques after imprisonment).
Conservatives also have this shadow, but they deal with it by dehumanizing the Jihadists. Liberals realize the full tragedy of the matter: these are human beings just like them, with love for and from their family and friends, with hopes for the future, with sometimes incredible talents for poetry, literature, art, science and engineering. They were just unlucky enough to fall prey to a death cult.
Maybe you should try watching some of the videos I linked to and reading the post — I do not believe Israel is committing a “genocide”; the evidence does not support this.
There is absolutely no chance to convince those, who parrot Israeli genocide and apartheid narratives, while excusing Islamic barbarism as resistance, that they have been brainwashed and are accepting fabricated lies. They are Jew haters. Foolishly using their intellect to convince themselves they are right. They should move to Gaza, The West Bank, or any other territory that hates Jews and take up arms. I wish them all the best.
I don't really believe in blocking people or deleting comments because I'm pro freedom of speech and all that, and I realize the comments section has gotten pretty intense because of this. I'm also about to have a baby and don't have the energy to moderate this space or respond to comments right now. I encourage people to try to get their points across without being aggressive or resorting to insults or threats.
So, how's the baby and how is the family?
We're all doing pretty well! The baby is very healthy and happy :-)
We'll behave while you are off bringing a new human in. Blessings. :-)
Besides the "Hamasniks are murderous because they are oppressed" false narrative, there is also the false narrative that "Israeli soldiers and settlers are murderous because they are colonialists". No. They are murderous because they want to live and prosper, and some of them even want the non-murderous Palestinians to live and prosper. Colonialism is a total misunderstanding of what has happened there, based on accurate models of what happened in Africa and the New world with European colonialists.
Colonialists. But this is not what happened. They did not remove the locals until the locals started murdering them. And they DID have documented ancestors dating back 2000 or so years, but that part doesn't matter, I think it's a red herring, though many right wing Jews are all about it. The locals could have been nice and welcoming, as most were in the americas, but instead at least some of the locals were murderous. Not only were these socialists willing to share everything with the locals (unlike colonialists who only want to extract resources from the locals), but they were REFUGEES. And also, many Mizrahi refugees (mostly not socialists, but also not colonialists) were kicked out by colonialist arabs from their countries, who took all their resources simply for being Jews.
The only colonialist thing that happened is to a small minority of Palestinian farmers who were kicked off their land by PALESTINIAN landlords, when the jewish agency (NOT socialists, but also not colonialists, the goal was to settle jewish refugees, not to extract resources from the natives) bought that land. If the socialists refugees had known this would happen, they would have opposed it. The rest of the land they bought was uninhabited swampland.
And less of an "ethnostate" than most other countries, in the sense of being very inclusive of other religions and ethnicities. Certainly less of an ethnostate than all the arab states at the time.
The fact that this idiot thinks Jews have no historical connection to Israel before “1886” tells you all you need to know. Probably a Columbia grad.
I didn't know that story about the Yemeni Jews. That's horrifying -- and completely believable, honestly. I'm familiar with some of the history of childrearing practices in the early Kibbutzes and there's clearly an incredible amount of trauma that came as a result of that. A Jewish friend told me that German Jews were kind of treated as "more civilized" and as having expertise that other groups were expected to respect etc and it all sounded pretty f-ed up.
"growing fears among the local Arab population about losing their land and political control" yes, but that was due to their fascist, colonialist, antisemitic and genocidal leaders, who collaborated with the Nazis, not anything the socialist refugees had done.
"violent clashes began". NO. I won't let you get away with using the passive voice. Violent clashes were started by murderous Palestinians, every single time from the early 1920s until the Jews kicked them out in 1948.
"The local population's resistance was rooted in genuine concerns about losing their homes, land, and political power, not simply a refusal to be "welcoming.""
NO. There was absolutely no reason to fear that from the Jews. The arabs had no problem with being ruled by a Turkish Colonial empire where they had very little political power, but now they are afraid of socialists who want to give them political power?
"Mizrahi Jews from places like Yemen, Iraq, and Egypt were often fleeing persecution in their home countries, but many found themselves treated as second-class citizens upon arriving in Israel." ... "Yemenite Children Affair..."
I was not aware of your story about Mizrahi children, sounds suspect and made-up and I will check on it and get back to you. But even if there were some episodes of discrimination against them by Ashkenazis, so what? Discrimination occurs almost in every culture, and the question is do things improve or not?. It is not equivalent to colonialism. Most Mizrahi Jews today don't feel like they are being discriminated in by Ashkenazis, and would certainly not want to move back to arab apartheid states, because things improved in Israel (but not so much in arab states).
"They were often settled in underdeveloped areas, like "development towns" or temporary transit camps, where they lived in poor conditions and were given limited opportunities for advancement. " This shows ignorance of the conditions of the first many years in Israel. Almost EVERYONE was poor and lived in poor conditions, and the main advancement was working hard at mostly farming and basic industry.
"While Mizrahi Jews faced terrible treatment both in their countries of origin and in Israel, it’s important to remember that their suffering does not negate or justify the displacement of Palestinians. Both communities have experienced trauma, and recognizing one group’s pain should not come at the expense of ignoring the other’s."
Sure, but one group was mostly murderous and one was not. I feel bad for both. If the Palestinians hadn't been murderous, they would not have been displaced. If the Mizrahis had been murderous, they would probably have also been displaced.
"there are also policies that prioritize the Jewish identity of the state, such as the Law of Return, which allows Jews from anywhere in the world to gain automatic citizenship. This is a privilege not extended to Palestinians displaced in 1948, who are still denied the right of return."
Yes, because they need to show non-murderous intent first. It's not easy to trust them given what they have said and done so far (whereas there is no reason to think Jews who want to "return" to Israel have murderous intent). There are those Palestinians who genuinely want to live in peace, but it's hard to know if they are telling the truth. After many attempts at peace, and especially after October 7th, the little trust that leftist Israelis had towards Palestinians is mostly gone. I think the ones who genuinely want peace should be vetted and monitored and allowed to return, but I am in a minority and I don't live there, and I don't blame the majority for not wanting to risk their lives.
yup yup, good "pernts" yer makin'--two quick comments:
1. most nations screwed up quite a bit at the start--Israel's restart (from even the early 20thc) as a nation is no exception and shouldn't git harder scrutiny because of it--they're still findin' out "who they are" as a new-ish (jooish) nation so yes--the socialist whatever kibbutz system was not good fer privacy or "famblies" and they dumped it in the late 60's (thankfully!) and sadly, yes, they started out with a hierarchy--Ashkenazi's took pride of place, German chews on top. To the surprise of NOBODY in the USA that was the same HERE. Even in my fambly (our Germans were snobby an' felt superior to our Litvaks who dismissed the Poles--all joos among joos they did this). Happened on the Lower East Side, so--yes, a shonda--happened in Israel where imho the biggest crime was to (at first) outlaw Yiddish! Yes to ban it an' vilify it as shetyl talk unworthy. Over time...much!... they figgered out they screwed up big time, they fixed it. Now you can read Yiddish poetry again. And here in AmeriKa we had slaves an' women didn't have the vote (I won't even start ta mention the Indians). Nu? This isn't allowed with joos? Every other nation had some ugly at the start... Only Israel is told they cannot exist fer it?
2. Re the above, apart from the Ashkenazi hierarchy mess, yes, some Mizrahis / Yemenite joos were not treated so nicely either--not horribly, nobuddy wanted to kill 'em but yes, true. A dear Yemenite jooish friend of ours just passed away--her late husband was a German joo, she native Israeli, him not. She olive complected he a blue-eyed blond. For all the above she told us about uneven treatment--not horrible discrimination but yes not impartial. That changed too over time. By the mid60's they were here in the US, he went back to fight in the IDF more 'n once. My "pernt" is that even in the same fambly there was unequal treatment in the post-war years... that too changed.
It all changed over time. Every nation, young 'er old, should be rightly called on its faults but certainly not razed for 'em!
Right, but the point is there was no colonialism until very recently (with the settlers). Socialists can't be colonialists, and extreme modern leftists in general can't be racists or antisemitic. Antisemitism is coming from the far right. Less true with moderates from both right and left. Moderate leftists can treat the outgroup worse than the ingroup.
Your response above seems to quick, and too red-herring like to be generated by you. DId you use and AI?
Nice try liar.
John's run out of chill pills. LOL
A lovely fall day indeed. :-)
Also, ask your AI if it is possible even in theory for socialists to be colonialist? I guess neither you nor the AI are capable of logical cognitive dissonance. At least the AI is not motivated by ill intent.
Lol... Finkelsheimers 🚫🤡
I wouldn't answer my cell phone if I were you
We have zero tolerance for the likes of you
you're a dead person
We don't fuck ourselves, because unlike you, we have women to have sex with.
Hi Meghan: Thank you for opening up a conversation that badly needs to be had. You are offering a point of view that isn’t easily found online or in legacy media. I’m finding the comments, as well as your column, very informative and helpful. Congratulations on making room for a discussion that doesn’t end in recreational nastiness. I’m sick of extremism. It’s a dead end. When we don’t listen to others, and demonize them instead problems stay unchanged.
Thank you, Susan <3 I really recommend Yasmine Mohammed's memoir! Her story is heartbreaking.
Actual literal Jew here (president of my AZA chapter in high school!) who thinks israel is an abomination, has no right to exist, and supports the intifada.
it's comforting to believe that anti-zionism is anti-semitism, because since you can (and should) dismiss antisemetic beliefs, you could in theory dismiss anti-zionism just as well.
i've talked to hundreds of anti-zionists in my life, people who like me believe that Israel has no right to exist. A huge amount (at least 20%) were fellow jews. The rest never expressed any anti-semitism (although maybe they knew I was jewish?) They certainly didn't seem like they had a problem with me.
My people use anti-semitism as a false flag to distract from criticism of Israel. Especially among the boomers, there is a belief that anything that protects/furthers the cause of Israel is good even if it dishonest. I would encourage you to consider the possibility that you have been manipulated.
I'm aware that there are Jewish people out there who do not support Zionism or Israel. (And I never meant to imply otherwise, my point here is that there are also many Palestinians, Lebanese, Muslims etc who are critical of Islamic extremism, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the activists here, and their voices deserve to be heard just as both Zionist and anti-Zionist (and everything in between) Jews ought to be). But it is my understanding that the vast majority of Jewish people support Israel's right to exist, even if they have criticisms of the government etc. My husband is Jewish, I am not.
I see. It appears missed the point of your article. I would argue that the identitarian approach to ideology (IE listen to a particular group of people) is misguided, regardless of which side uses it.
As you point out, in almost any ethnically tinged conflict there are going to be people from both groups on both sides. I don't think people should only listen to pro-palestine Palestinians but again that misses the point: Israel is wrong because it is wrong, never because of who says it is wrong. Similarly -- I don't think we need to "listen to women" to be against rape/sexual assault. Nor do we need to listen to African Americans to be against police brutality (that's actually a very similar situation where there are tons of African Americans who want more policing in their communities). I think the truth of certain causes ought to be self-evident to outsiders.
In fairness to you, I constantly see my fellow anti-zionists making terrible arguments so I imagine you probably have encountered a bunch of people telling you to listen to Palestinians. What I will say, as someone who grew up surrounded by Zionism is that until very recently, Zionism had an almost hegemonic role in the discourse so I _would_ encourage Zionists to seek out non-zionist sources, but I don't think the ethnicity of those sources is meaningful.
It’s also comforting to believe that anti-Zionism is never anti-Semitism and that it is in effect a get out of jail free card, complete absolution. Also, I don’t give a shit if you’re a Jew, you’re Jew hating scum. blocked.
Taking out the psychic vampire from your feed is healthy. It brings me pleasure to mock them
Finkelsheimers who built a skatepark for the Jews between their ears to grind away daily rent-free
5785 is shaping up nicely isn't it?
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2024/08/14/israel_leader_of_the_free_world_151445.html
L Shana Tova
🚫🤡
Actually you are a pathetic abomination destined for a most miserable existence .
Karma is a bitch!
Terrorism is awful, and Hamas aren't the good guys. Israel isn't perfect either, but no government is. The more I heal myself the less radical I've become. I used to be such an arrogant, petulant child that thought she knew best. I'm ashamed of that past self, but I'm also compassionate. This world needs healing. Extremists on both sides (because yes, there are awful people on both sides) need healing...and you can't force them to heal. You can't force them to act or think in any way, same with us. Growth and healing comes from within. So we watch, we reach out to those who awoke from "woke" and we hope more will come.
Thank you for writing this, Cassandra! You are in the vanguard of people who are waking up to the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance of a "progressive" #FreePalestine movement. I believe that many of us believed that it was progressive to support Palestine because it was coming from the Left. What many of us (stupidly) failed to see was that the far-Right and enemies of Western civilization also supported this movement. All that the Hamas Digital Force had to do was tie in Zionism with Capitalism and it all went downhill from there! Queers for Palestine and other "Face-Eating Leopard Club" cadres were formed.
While I used to consider myself a leftist, I was never actually "pro-Palestine"! I just didn't know a lot about the Middle East and stayed out of that particular conversation. But then October 7th happened and my husband is Jewish and suddenly a lot of people who I'd never seen or heard say anything about this were going off on social media ... so I started reading and listening to podcasts and tried to engage with both sides with an open mind. But it was so obvious that a lot of what the "pro-Palestine" activists were saying online wasn't true ... and their behaviour was so toxic. I honestly wanted to believe the best in them, but the more I paid attention to what they were saying and what they believed, how they treated anyone who disagreed with them, the harder it became. I only recently started following / listening to / reading stuff by Muslim and ex-Muslim peace activists who oppose Islamic extremism, and I'm learning a lot. A lot of stuff that scares the crap out of me, to be honest :-/ thanks for reading ...
Meghan, I agree with much of what you said, but I think the antisemitism trope is inaccurate. Many people should be able to criticize Israel, especially the current government (including many Israelis!), and that doesn't make them antisemitic. The problem is not criticism of Israel, but a false understanding of what is going on there. It's true that the IDF sometimes messes up, and that soldiers sometimes kill civilians unnecessarily (and this surely happenned for Hamasniks on October 7th as well, not all their murdering of pro-Palestinian Israeli civilians was intentional). It's also true that settlers act in ways that are born of hatred and produce more hatred on the Palestinian side with terrible acts towards Palestinian farmers. Oppression of Palestinians by Israelis DOES HAPPEN, not just in the west bank, and sometimes within Israel, but even in Gaza implicitly, because of the blockade, and the oppression has increased from 1948.
What is NOT true is the fundamental narrative of many western leftists that Hamasniks are murderous BECAUSE Palestinians are being oppressed. Here is why:
1. When refugee socialist and anarchist (as in "let's share the earth and love everyone in justice and peace") Jews from Europe first came to Palestine, most came with an open heart and mind, wanting peace with the locals (caveat: there was a small minority who were right wing, but they mostly settled in Tel Aviv and had little contact with the local villagers or even local muslim city dwellers until Deir Yassin). They were not oppressing the locals, the locals were not living in an open air prison, and still some of the locals started murdering them (way before Deir Yassin)
2. When Israel made concessions and oppressed the Palestinians LESS, the Jihadists among them were more emboldened and started murdering or trying to murder MORE (suicide bombings, stabbings, ramming Israelis with cars, and rockets). There is no signal, even delayed, that shows the efficacy of being more peaceful towards Palestinians. On the contrary, more peace and love from Israel, leads to more violence from extremist Palestinians.
3.Peace loving Israelis who were helping Palestinians both with healthcare and financially, and were working towards ousting Netanyahu were murdered indiscriminately on October 7, just because they were available to be murdered. So were asian interns at kibbutzes. It wasn't about murdering "the evil oppressor zionists". It was just about murdering people who were soft targets (but still considered "evil oppressors" by western liberals?).
4. The murderousness persists in some Islamic countries (not just Israel/Palestine, as you have pointed out) between Jihadists, whether they are oppressing each other or not, and certainly happened towards Jews before 48 in arab countries, who were actually the oppressed minorities there. The fact that western liberals are not in arms about these other countries is due to the fact that Hamas is much better at propaganda than anyone in these other countries, and also due to the fact that there is no easy "persecutor" with which to play the victim/persecutor/rescuer game (liberals love this game, always being the "rescuers").
The root problem is Jihadist Islam. Oppression of people is one factor that leads to people becoming more open to Jihadism (or other murderous ideologies), but once they adopt the ideology, oppression has nothing to do with their murderousness anymore. Western liberals do not have a model for this kind of murderous ideology. The only models they have are of oppressed people becoming murderous as an act of resistance, but in that case their murderousness is conditional on the oppression stopping. Not so in the case of Jihadists.
My daughter wants my attention so I had to skim this (I'll read comments more carefully when I have a chance) but quickly, I didn't mean to imply that any criticism of Israel, the IDF etc is antisemitic -- I actually think I wrote the opposite. I take issue with lies, blood libels, slander, hypocrisy, etc.
I also acknowledge that there definitely is extremism within Israel -- the link goes to the Wikipedia page on Kahanism, which is objectively a Zionist extremist terrorist movement, and absolutely deserves condemnation. And yes, there is definitely a lot to criticize about what some Israelis are doing in the West Bank.
Here's the quote:
"I’m not asking you to become pro-Israel or pro-Zionist, to like Bibi, or to pretend that there is no extremism among the Jewish people (there is). I think it’s fine to criticize Israel, the Jewish people, and individual Jews—although, radically, I think these criticisms should be accurate, a standard that it seems the vast majority of “pro-Palestine” activists fail to achieve."
Yes, I read what you said carefully (I even had caught a typo, but forgot what it was by the time I was done), I didn't miss that. I think we don't need to get bogged down in blood libels or other stupidities, we should address the smart liberals or socialists or anarchists, who are making a fundamental mistake in their understanding of the situation there, not because they are antisemitic.
I hope you can go back to what I wrote and comment on it. And that all this doesn't induce premature labor due to stress ;-)
So there were no Israeli massacres of Palestinian villages in the Nakba? Qibiya is the first one that pops into mind (mostly because the rest of the villages have names that start with S + (insert Arabic shit here)), alongside the intentional antagonism of its neighbors (lead up to wars with Syria and Egypt where Israel successfully portrayed the Arabs as the evil aggressors), all the way up to Bibi Netanyahu promising that wars with Iran and Iraq would bring peace to the region (what a lie and how many people died) - the Zionist Jewish Kool-Aid really is something huh. Your shit doesn't stink.
There were ZERO massacres of Palestinians by Jews before 1948. But many massacres of LIBERAL, ANARCHIST, SOCIALIST, LEFTIST, PEACE LOVING Jews by Palestinians. Qibiya was in 1953. There was also ZERO expulsions of Palestinians from land and homes by Jews before 1948. After 1948, the Jews decided to stand up to the murderousness and so the Nakba happened. But even then, the Jews continue to help and try to collaborate with peaceful Palestinians in many ways, some of which Meghan mentioned. But let's keep talking, brother.
the existence of groups like Irgun and its disproportionate influence on Israeli politics in the form of Likud party / other far-right / right groups in Israel ... I want to know what Kool-Aid you're drinking. This is some North Korean rewriting of history that no one outside of your bubble believes (because it never happened).
Irgun was a very small fringe group that I already alluded to in my comment. They fucked up at Deir Yassin and were condemned by everyone else in the Palmah. No, the history is accurate. You have not addressed the points I made and thus have shown yourself to be in bad faith, so no further interaction for me with you until you address the points I made.
I can't help myself but to engage with this false prophet, since we are both interested in history (but only one of us in truth). My interest in truth is motivated by childhood trauma, to be sure, it's sometimes (like here) counterproductive and OCD.
By the time Likkud was a party, Irgun was long gone. So your statement is false in that sense. No influence of Irgun on Likkud. There were some former Irgun members who made it to high positions in the Likkud though, so there is some truth to your statement. But by that time, they had renounced terrorism, much like Mandela did in South Africa, since their terrorism was aimed at getting the British colonialists out of Israel/Palestine. Yes, even with the King David Hotel, which was a military target.
Find me even ONE (documented in writing) instance of unprovoked Jewish violence against arabs before 1948, or ONE instance of Palestinians being kicked out of their homes or lands by Jews, before 1948.
Israel's actions show that it never intended to compensate or resettle Palestinians; state expansion was always the objective. Naturally, once Arab nations recognized this, they responded with aggression. Categorizing Arabs as extremists indicates a biased viewpoint and exemplifies how Israeli and Jewish narratives have effectively demonized the other side.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uCN81ChisVW9LkrGIZvcFQoW3kwy1YxV/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i1pUdrCyYeCb0pNdDjdFbspD6DxBVBqQ/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KaG8nXTkZ82P2jRLdWGuOfhTUQCu2Zis/view
I read the last 2 articles, but not Morris, because I am familiar with Morris' position, which is also mine: after 5 (or more?) arab countries attacked Israel in 1948, and even just before when internal arabs were attacking Jews within Israel, many internal arabs who were seen as a threat were displaced. Some who seemed peaceful were allowed to stay. The UN already showed its cluelessness back in 1949, not understanding that you can't let people who want to murder you back into your country (and of course it wasn't a perfect filter, there were some false negatives, meaning some arabs who were peaceful were also unfortunately displaced). Nobody except Israel would be expected to do such a thing. Antisemitism? Perhaps, though I'd rather think cluelessness.
Lies, and misunderstandings. Who categroized "arabs" as extremists? Not me. They HAVE conservative extremists, but more so than Israelis, as surveys have shown.
I read your entire essay and it's missing the overall point that the world is condemning the genocidal way in which Israel is waging war against Palestine. You are lumping together people who are "pro Hamas" (which yes, is very problematic) and the larger group who simply don't think Israel should be breaking Geneva conventions and international law and waging genocide against another population. Being anti-apartheid and anti-genocide is not being anti-semitic. it's also not being pro-hamas.
Are you anti-apartheid? Are you anti-genocide? Do you believe a country should be able to restrict the rights of some citizens based on their ethnicity?
I read your links so now I'm hoping that you will read mine: https://www.democracynow.org/2023/11/2/ta_nehisi_coates
Emma, I'm happy to read your link (will do so now), but given that my essay was published less than half an hour ago and how much material I included in it, there's no way you engaged with even a fraction of it. I think Israel should be doing everything in their power to minimize civilian deaths, and that the civilian death count has been tragically high.
"Are you anti-genocide?" Yes, of bloody course. Nothing I wrote here indicates I am "pro-genocide" but you'll note that I point out that "pro-Palestine" activists seem to be incapable of engaging with contradicting view points *without* resorting to stuff like "Do you support genocide?" Based on the evidence I've looked at from both sides, I do not think the vast majority of people in Israel wish to commit a genocide, but that rescuing the hostages and taking out Hamas has been *extremely* difficult due to how Hamas does nothing to protect civilians (they started the war, why didn't they build bomb shelters for civilians since they knew it was coming?) and even uses them as human shields. That belief is not the same thing as "supporting genocide". I do not want any innocent civilians to die, I just blame Hamas *more* for the deaths of innocents than I do the IDF.
No, I don't think a country should restrict rights of citizens based on ethnicity. However, Israel left Gaza nearly 20 years ago as an occupying force, and hasn't governed Gaza since. Within Israel, can you give me an example of rights being denied based on ethnicity?
They just regurgitate and repeat "genocide" and "apartheid" because someone told them to. They have no idea what either term actually means, nor that both are utterly false accusations applied to Israel, instead of countries where either or both are actually happening. The point of your essay is correct: there's no point in engaging with these people. They're brainwashed, and until they decide to pull themselves out of it, hopeless.
Yes :-/ There's extreme black and white thinking going on, "splitting" where people (etc) are "all good" or "all bad". The issue is, because they think this way, they can't accept that they might have gotten anything wrong, because then their self-image risks flipping from "all good" to "all bad." Narcissism is a hard shell to break.
The fact that this person thinks Ta-Nehisi Coates is some sort of authority on Israel (which he calls "Palestine") simply because he spent a week and a half there, and has a book to peddle, says a lot. Not a serious person; but people who believe Israel has no right to exist rarely, if ever, are. They're just obsessives who decompensate by the day.
Yes, it's somewhat odd that she invokes Coates as some sort of authority on this but won't bother to watch the interview with Mansour Al-Hadj I included.
your right. Best wishes!
Emma are you just a hateful person or stupid.
What was the dark secret in your family to make you such a pathetic liar.
Were you raped, was there incest , pedophilia.
What kind of revolting people do you come from or as I asked earlier are you just plain stupid?
Howard, while her comment was ridiculous, this is incredibly inappropriate and not helpful at all.
I’m sorry. Strong anger gets the best of me. How can someone be so stupid and delusional spouting incessant lies
I don't know. I just know that if you let them stir up the darkness in you too, they win.
Here ... I'm not up to writing a lot at this moment, but this is relevant:
https://thecassandracomplex.substack.com/p/broken-mirror-syndrome
Acknowledging them as finkelsheimers and nothing else leaves them without reply.
In every generation they shall rise up against us acknowledging them as Esau or as I call them finkelsheimers is the dismissive flick that is needed
There's no intellect or engagement to bother with they're wired to hate and be irrational and non-objective
Perhaps thinking about this event on the pro/anti slaughter axis might give you more clarity.
You might be able to hear the voices that think that the slaughter on Oct 7th in Israel and the subsequent year-long slaughter in Gaza were both detestable.
If you think Oct 7th was an atrocity, and you value human life equally, then you must also see the response as an atrocity too.
I don't have issues with people who condemn both October 7 and the response to it, but condemning the response without condemning October 7 is f-cked up. I tend to blame Hamas *more* for civilian deaths in Gaza than the IDF, but either way, I think far too many civilians have died.
I was upset that people are planning to celebrate what happened on October 7, and stuff like the denial of sexual violence etc. As well as lies, slander, and bullying from the activists, and ignoring the oppression, violence (etc) by Islamic extremists across the Middle East. But ultimately the point of my writing this was that I want people to listen to Middle Eastern voices who challenge the activists' narratives and actions.
What would paying attention to the "oppression, violence (etc) by Islamic extremists across the Middle East" look like? What would listening to "Middle Eastern voices who challenge the activists' narratives and actions" look like?
Would it stop their resistance to Israel's actions, or weaken it?
I don't think so. War crimes on either side don't justify further war crimes.
I can read all the stories you posted and be disgusted by them and also be disgusted by the bombing of Lebanon. As well, I can look at the scale of the suffering inflicted and have that scale impact the amount of disgust I feel. I can do that because I value Israeli, Lebanese and Palestinian lives equally.
This discussion about trauma and Jewishness went a long way to helping me understand the situation as a non Jew. I hope it helps you too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi0peSHSWNY
I'm a fan of a lot of Gabor Mate's work (and have read some of Klein's books as well), but unfortunately I think his judgement has been clouded lately. For example:
https://thecassandracomplex.substack.com/p/authoritarianism-and-the-amygdala
That's a big ask to watch an hour and 50 minutes video. I skipped around a bit. Can you try to summarize their points? I am familiar with Daniel's dad who thinks about trauma like a carpenter with only a hammer thinks of nails. Everything is trauma to Gabor. And I think it's probably true that American/Canadian Jews have been more traumatized than most Israelis until October 7th, because Israelis are resilient and actually anti-fragile. The way to do that is to be able to express feelings and directly deal with what is trying to traumatize you. Trauma comes when people are trapped and helpless. Israelis have actually looked badly at holocaust survivors who are not able to act, all they want to do is complain, though there is also trauma-informed understanding.
So for most Israelis younger than 60, they don't want to finish off Hamas and Hezbalah because they are traumatized by October 7th (and certainly not the holocaust, that's just american and Canadian Jews). It's a pragmatic matter. It's a way to peace, not the whole way, but a beginning that has to be followed by all kinds of other non-violent measures. It's become clear that without finishing off current Jihadists, peace will never come (see my post earlier on why the standard liberal narrative about how Jihadists are murderous because they are oppressed, and Israelis are murderous because they are colonialists is completely and utterly false).
I think those 3 folks from the video should go to Gaza and talk to Hamas, and then (if they survive) go to Israel and talk to almost anyone (but not the settlers) so they can see the situation for themselves, instead of from afar. Please watch this much shorter video for some info on Daniel's dad Gabor Mate and his weasel-like behavior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGOSrl3UPUg
It’s not antisemitism. It’s the Geneva violations.
Given that you posted this within minutes of it going live, there is exactly a zero percent chance you read it, or looked at or read any sources. Which, you'll find it you read it, is pretty much exactly my point about the "pro-Palestine" crowd -- you don't engage with material that contradicts your beliefs.
Let's assume Israel is committing Geneva violations. Hamas (and Hezbollah etc) *obviously* is too. So why are you only condemning one side?
It was worth reading past your near-immediate invocation of antisemitism to see you admit your tendency to play flying monkey. So either you know exactly what you’re doing or “the shadow knows,” but either way: please stop. We’ve all read so many pieces like this, and they only hurt your cause.
It’s not antisemitic to condemn Israel’s conduct. To suggest otherwise is incredibly insulting to your intended audience (as are the scare quotes around pro-Palestine). We’re not stupid, nor are we blind. And neither are you. It’s not as if you racked your brain and could only come up with antisemitism as a possible explanation.
It’s simply bad hasbara, a zero-effort straw Nazi smeared with bullshit. At some level, you must already know this.
This was written pretty quickly, I've been emotional (which I admitted), and I'm about to have a baby. My point was that I wanted people to engage with Middle Eastern voices who contradict or challenge the activist narrative. If you're looking for good explanations, the links are there for you to read / watch.
Respectfully, I know you’re coming from a good place, but you’re fighting against bad faith people who are looking for any excuse to bash Israel.
Yeah ...
Without Google and A.I., if you asked this person what specific "Geneva violations" Israel has allegedly committed (and Hamas/Hesbollah/Houthis/Iran, etc. supposedly hasn't), you'd get slackjawed silence.
Great post, by the way.
See? You’ll agree to anything that gives you an excuse to ignore that Israel is a genocidal rogue state.
“It’s not antisemitic to condemn Israel’s conduct.”
Sometimes it certainly is. If you focus maniacally in a spittle-flecked rage on Israel and say nothing about the 5 million refugees in Sudan – that definitely can be anti-Semitism. And my guess is you don’t care about any other world conflicts. That’s a Jew hating twat like you being disingenuous and trying to use “Oh I’m just against Israel” as a get out of jail free card. Rejected.
Also, who TF is this Xy douchebag? I’m guessing that he’s under 35, which means in terms of ability to absorb facts and do independent research, he might as well be 15. A generation that learns everything via TikTok.
I love the concern trolling of “only hurts your cause.” As if he gave two shits about our cause, or the 7 million Jews living in Israel. Or for that matter the 90,000 of them that were displaced from their homes by theocratic fascists. He can fuck straight off to hell along with the rest of our enemies
Feeling any better?
I'm considerably older than 35, thanks, but I admit I don't know what Sudan has to do with antisemitism. Are you comparing the situations because both involve ethnic cleansing if not outright genocide?
But it is antisemitic to only condemn Israel and not Hamas, Hezbollah and the Islamic regime occupying Iran, among others.
The insults peppered in your comment have a distinct "doth protest too much" flavour.
You couldn’t pick out Geneva on a map you extreme moron.
There should be laws against people as stupid as you posting
I picked your mom out on a map, dummy.
There you go. That’s your level. My advice is stick to playground insults and avoid geopolitics. You don’t have sufficient brain cells.
They’re not friends. Cut them off. You’ll feel better and your life will improve.
> I looked at the event. It’s a celebration. A goddamn celebration of the hundreds of murders, rapes, and kidnappings of mostly-civilians, including many women, children, and seniors, that happened on October 7th. Organized by a group with “intifada” in its name. What the hell is wrong with you?Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?
Perhaps they don't believe there were "hundreds of murders and rapes", just bad propaganda about what happened. And probably think 70 years of displacement and murders, including a full blown genocide upon a landlocked population that has 50x the victims is worse.
If we're going to speculate about Jungian shadows, I think there is another one that comes to mind, besides the "Great Empty" of modernity though. Ironically, unlike western wokesters, both Jihadists and pre-Nakba Palestinians do not have this shadow. Jihadists' lives are full of meaning, though much of it is based on murderousness. And most pre-Nakba Palestinians also had lives full of meaning, dignity, community and good work in villages and small cities.
The liberal (and also woke) shadow I want to bring to your attention, is the (subconscious) realization that some people's murderousness is not amenable to liberal measures such as education, free speech, wealth, justice, trade, love, self-sacrifice by their perceived enemies, and self-determination. The shadow that must be buried at all costs into the pit of one's subconscious is: the only way Jihadists can be prevented from murdering is with death or imprisonment (and maybe cult-deprogramming techniques after imprisonment).
Conservatives also have this shadow, but they deal with it by dehumanizing the Jihadists. Liberals realize the full tragedy of the matter: these are human beings just like them, with love for and from their family and friends, with hopes for the future, with sometimes incredible talents for poetry, literature, art, science and engineering. They were just unlucky enough to fall prey to a death cult.
There’s still time to delete this…(..before the Nuremberg trials of Israel at-least..)
I stand by what I wrote. I logged on to share this, and will leave it here too.
https://www.futureofjewish.com/p/beware-the-irrational-however-seductive
Are you pathologically curious about genocide?
Maybe you should try watching some of the videos I linked to and reading the post — I do not believe Israel is committing a “genocide”; the evidence does not support this.
Only Israel is committing genocide, though.
There is absolutely no chance to convince those, who parrot Israeli genocide and apartheid narratives, while excusing Islamic barbarism as resistance, that they have been brainwashed and are accepting fabricated lies. They are Jew haters. Foolishly using their intellect to convince themselves they are right. They should move to Gaza, The West Bank, or any other territory that hates Jews and take up arms. I wish them all the best.